#18
Nezavisimaya Gazeta
February 18, 2003
GEORGE ROBERTSON: NO LONGING FOR THE COLD WAR
Claims that Russia and the West are exchanging intelligence information
An exclusive interview with NATO Secretary General George Robertson
Author: Yevgeny Verlin
[from WPS Monitoring Agency, www.wps.ru/e_index.html]

THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF NATO SAYS RUSSIA DOESN'T POSE A THREAT TO NATO, NOR DOES NATO POSE A THREAT TO RUSSIA. THE LEVEL OF TRUST HAS NEVER BEEN SO HIGH, AND COOPERATION IS SUBSTANTIAL. RUSSIA AND NATO NEED TO JOIN FORCES IN THE BATTLE AGAINST TERRORISM.

NATO MILITARY PLANNING COMMITTEE FINISHED ITS UNPRECEDENTED 40-HOUR LONG MEETING IN BRUSSELS BARE HOURS BEFORE THE EMERGENCY SUMMIT OF THE EUROPEAN UNION. THE COMMITTEE PASSED THE DECISION TO OFFER "PREVENTIVE MILITARY ASSISTANCE" TO TURKEY. (NOT A MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE, FRANCE DID NOT PARTICIPATE.) APPLYING PRESSURE, THE UNITED STATES HAS FINALLY SOLVED THE PROBLEM THAT ALL BUT SPLIT THE ALLIANCE.

Question: NATO makes decisions by consensus. Given the recent debates over Turkey, perhaps some other procedure would be better? Something like a majority of two-thirds?

George Robertson: It is out of the question. This is not the first time we have disagreed over something, but we always overcome the discord successfully. It is vital for NATO to make decisions by consensus. Large countries would never want small countries to have their way regardless of them, and small countries in their turn do not want large countries to tell them what to do. The consensus is vital when the matter concerns defense and security. It is less important in, say, the European Union where different issues are handled.

Question: What about the UN Security Council? It also deals with peace and security, but the procedures are different...

George Robertson: Like the European Union, the United Nations doesn't require a consensus. It has its own reasons. In NATO, however, the process of decision-making stipulates equality.

Question: A few words about the NATO Rapid Response Forces now. How fast will their deployment be? How costly will it be to form a contingent capable of dealing with the threat of terrorism and so on?

George Robertson: I think we will do it without delay, in 2004. Sure, a sizeable part of the force already exists. It is not going to be a constant contingent comprising the same people. We want rotation of the forced commanded by various headquarters. Will it be costly? Yes. European countries will have to master the capacities (specified in the program of modernization adopted by the Prague summit) enabling them to function.

Question: What do you mean by the people? The governments of participant nations?

George Robertson: Yes. The Prague summit adopted some important initiatives concerning broader capacities. They are focused on the fields where additional military equipment is needed. I hope these initiatives will be successful.

In fact, some countries - including Russia and some NATO members - still spend money on a threat that no longer exists. Russia doesn't pose a threat to NATO, nor does NATO pose a threat to Russia. All the same, we still retain vast arsenals of tanks, submarines, and everything else once produced for Cold War purposes - instead of spending money on modern military hardware needed to deal with new challenges. By the way, the question of what weapons we all need in this situation is a subject discussed by the Russia-NATO Council.

Question: Talking to representatives and experts of NATO countries, I constantly hear the opinion that contacts with officials of the Russian liaison mission have greatly improved over the past year. Do you share this opinion?

George Robertson: When I came here over three years ago, our relations with Russia were on hold. The atmosphere in the wake of the Kosovo events was tense. It was like some sort of battle between NATO and Russia. We had a bilateral council then and discussed the problems of the Balkans and the operation there within its framework. Still, Russia inevitably voted against when all nineteen NATO members voted in favor. Then we began trusting one another, and the "Twenty Format" appeared. Yes, we still have cases when nineteen countries vote in favor and the twentieth votes against, but that twentieth country is not Russia.

Overall, NATO-Russia cooperation is very extensive. We discuss nonproliferation of weapons of mass destruction, rescue of submarines, peacekeeping operations, and so on. This is indeed cooperation on an unprecedented scale, and Russia is viewed as a partner.

Question: Can we say that mutual trust grows along with developing cooperation?

George Robertson: We are on the level with one another. We exchange information we have never exchanged before. We even share classified intelligence information.

Question: Some in Russia think this country gives you more by way of information than it gets in return.

George Robertson: No. I am told by the president and defense minister of Russia that the information exchange is carried out on equal terms. Moreover, President Bush told me that the documents he gave to President Putin in Crawford were highly classified, the sort of documents meant for the president's eyes only. In other words, we have never had so high a level of trust in each other.

Question: All this because we have a common enemy?

George Robertson: Yes. And an enemy to be taken seriously. It means that we must use this chance to unite our efforts for the war on terrorism.

Question: Some Russians, however, believe that the United States and NATO are "encircling Russia" and pushing it out of "Russian geopolitical territory". General Leonid Ivashov said so recently.

George Robertson: I know. I read that. General Ivashov belongs to the category of particularly persistent advocates of the views of the past. The world has changed. General Ivashov has not.

Question: Ivashov is retired now. Dealing with Russian generals, do you think they are already a new generation?

George Robertson: I do. We deal with people who want to keep in touch and exchange information. I'm under the impression that we have much more in common than we have differences. Take General Yuri Baluyevsky and our assistant chairman of the Military Planning Committee. Their relations - in both official and unofficial capacities - are enviable. As for Ivashovs - they still exist and have their counterparts in the West. Sooner or later, however, they will have to face life as it is.

Question: Can we say that the number of hawks on both sides has gone down?

George Robertson: Definitely. They are dying out.

Question: Literally? Or do you dismiss them from NATO structures?

George Robertson: They choose to go of their own volition. But actually, we oust them from NATO armies at a faster rate than had the matter been left to them. And at a faster rate than our Russian colleagues do. Rotation in our armies is faster.

Question: Do you think it possible that it will be like the situation after World War II - when we defeated a common enemy, and then quarrelled?

George Robertson: I hope not. We must not miss the new opportunity to build a close and stable relationship. I was in Volgograd last year, visited the Mamayev Kurgan memorial and talked to students at the local university. I said in my speech approximately what President Putin had said a couple of weeks earlier - we should not lose the "link" between the East end the West that appeared during the war. Stalin ignored the opportunity then (his regime did not need anything of this sort) and opted to challenge the West as soon as we defeated a common enemy. These days, I perceive a colossal opportunity for us in the light of the war on a common enemy. It enables us to learn to work together to meet common challenges.

Question: In other words, you are optimistic about Russia's future?

George Robertson: Absolutely. I've been here many times. The first time was 40 years ago, in 1963. I was 15 when my class visited Leningrad. Well, changes in this country have been amazing. I'm proud to be the first chairman of the NATO-Russia Council. I could never imagine a day when I would chair a meeting of the president of Russia, the presidents of the United States and France, the British prime minister, the chancellor of Germany, and even the prime ministers of Iceland and Luxembourg. At the Rome summit last year we sat in approximately the same configuration as the leaders of the anti-Hitler coalition had once used in Yalta. It was a memorable day in Rome, momentous for me and for the whole world.

Question: Can you imagine a Russian defense minister holding your present office, 20 or 30 years from now?

George Robertson: I do not rule out the possibility. By the way, I have direct telephone connections with all NATO capitals. In the near future, technicians will install another telephone linking me with Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov. We will be able to discuss matters confidentially.

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