LESSER: I worked in the world of physics for many years, I was in graduate school and I had an internship prior to graduate school in physics, in astrophysics, in fact. And I decided after many years in the field working both at universities and the national labs, that I wasn't really contributing to society in the way that I wanted to, and that I could use my talents in much more active ways, and that I could contribute to our society in a much more short-term manner. And that in physics I was contributing to society, but I wasn't really able to see my contributions except in a very long-term -- in the long-term.

de la Cruz: How did you pick the particular organization – why environmental...

LESSER: Well, I'm interested in many different social issues and causes, but I chose environmentalism specifically because it was one of the causes in which I didn't understand the opposition. And I felt like I could put my full force behind it because I can't understand why someone would be against working for the environment and improving the environment and improving the health of everyone in this country.

de la Cruz: In your work, in your organization, have you found that people are responsive – younger people, older people, responsive – to your cause?

LESSER: Older people? Or...

de la Cruz: Younger people, are they fairly responsive, are they aware of social issues such as environmentalism and nuclear de-alerting, and so forth?

LESSER: Sure. I think that the younger generation right now is the most environmentally aware than any generation in our country. We have a great opportunity as young people because we grew up recycling, for example, learning about environmental education in our high schools. Something that our parents didn't have the opportunity to learn about. And we are aware of many more issues with the environment than the older generation.

de la Cruz: Recently you just told me you found out about the nuclear de-alerting issue. What were your thoughts when you found out that in 1995 we almost, you know, self -destructed because of an error, you know, in a computer system. What would be your reaction when you found this out?

LESSER: When I learned about the accident, or the almost accident in 1995, I was absolutely terrified. I had no idea that situations like this existed. It wasn't exactly surprising, since I'm fairly aware of the disintegration of the Russian infrastructure and government, etc… and I have been generally worried about whose hands our nuclear, the Russian nuclear weapons fall into. But I had no idea that it had actually escalated the point where we almost had a nuclear disaster in this country.

de la Cruz: That was good. Why do think it's important – why in your view, is de-alerting an important issue for young people to get behind?

LESSER: Well, as young people of course, we have most of our lives left to live and I'm out everyday fighting for the environment, fighting for health, and other social causes in this country. And it's all worthless if suddenly we blow up in a nuclear disaster. I know I learned in high school that the Cold War was over and suddenly now I'm learning that the threat of accidental nuclear war is greater than ever. I see no reason now that the Cold War is over that we should continue to have our nuclear weapons on alert status. There should be some benefit to ending the Cold War, and that benefit should be increased safety for everyone. It seems like taking our nuclear weapons off of alert status is the first step towards achieving that safety; a very important step.

de la Cruz: I agree. In terms of your organization, you help young people get involved in the environment. What are some of the best ways, or what are some of the methods you use to get people involved?

LESSER: Well, I write a listserve, called EarthNet News. And it goes out to several thousand students each week. We highlight one legislative issue every week and try to get students interested in a variety of environmental causes. We highlight different topics each week hoping to attract the attention of different students in each alert.

de la Cruz: Now how can students get involved, in general… we talked about this before… approaching your politics professor, or letter writing. Can you, sort of, enumerate some of the basic ways that young people can get involved, and maybe phrase it in such a way that, you know, "you can get involved by" saying these 3 or 4 things.

LESSER: Students in particular, have a great advantage in getting involved in causes like this, because they're already in a community of people who are socially aware, who are interested in becoming more educated about topics. That's why they're in college, and are luckily in the same location, so there's a wonderful opportunity for students to start campaigns on their campuses. Within those campaigns students could write letters to their representatives, "table" on campus, outside of the dining halls, for example and encourage other students to write letters to their representatives, and the President, encouraging nuclear de-alerting. In particular they could write letters to local newspapers in their region and articles for campus newspapers. A great way to educate students. And newspapers are frequently looking for articles and letters to the editor --and editorial… They could also hook up with one of the larger campaigns, nationally. And it's also – this particular issue, de-alerting – is a great coalition building tool. Environmentalists, peace activists, other social advocacy groups on campus could all come together and begin a campaign to end – I have to think how to say that—and begin a campaign to try to take nuclear weapons off of alert status – that's the word I'm looking for…

de la Cruz: The campaign is called "End the Nuclear Threat Now."

LESSER: "End the Nuclear Threat Now"? Okay.

de la Cruz: I don't know if that's what you were trying to search for.

LESSER: Right. So, I think this issue of nuclear de-alerting is a great way to build coalitions on campus with peace activists, environmental activists and groups that are interested in other social advocacy causes. This is an issue that really spreads across a whole genre - no let's change that again – I think this issue of nuclear de-alerting is a great issue to really build coalitions on campus around. Peace activists and environmental activists and groups engaged in other social advocacy causes, can all come together and build a campaign around ending the nuclear threat.

de la Cruz: Do you think young people in general – by working with them - do you find that they are pretty much aware of what's going on now? Are they pretty attune to different social causes? I want to retouch that again.

LESSER: Sure. I think young people are eager to learn about causes like this. We hear so much in the media now that we don't know what to trust. We phase out a lot of what we hear. Sort of overload of information, so I think a lot of people tune out when it comes to advocacy causes. But, most of the young people that I speak to are very interested in learning what we have to tell them. We just have to get the word out. We have to somehow reach them, whether it be on-line, on the Internet. Through out reach on campus in different groups. And I think students and young people are really amenable to working with this. And I'm sure that young people will be terrified when they learn how close we've come in recent years to nuclear disaster

de la Cruz: You mentioned in an earlier phone conversation last week, something about another way that you help educate young people about these various causes – environmentalism in your organization – is through workshops. Talk about if you would, about how that can facilitate getting the word out as well. I don't even know what's involved in the workshops, actually.

LESSER: Sure. The organization that I work with, the Center for Environmental Citizenship, runs trainings on campuses all across the country on a whole variety of environmental issues, as well as citizenship issues like lobbying and media. And it's a great way to bring an interested group of students together who are interested in learning about the issue and train them on what facts are involved and how they can get involved. So for example, a national group can contact a student on campus who you know is interested and they will bring different people together on a weekend and national leaders can come out to that campus and train students on how to run a campaign to end the nuclear threat. On how to write letters and to organize other students to write letters around this campaign. And educate them generally about the issue involved.

de la Cruz: Let's try to condense that a whole thought - we can start to inform student through workshops as well… you know, the benefits of it.

LESSER: Okay.

de la Cruz: So, how - in what other way, can people organize and get the word out on campus?

LESSER: Sure. We can organize workshops and trainings on campuses, as a common goal of many organizations to bring students together for a day during the weekend and train them on the issues involved, how to run a campaign to end the nuclear threat, and how to organize on campus to bring other student into this campaign and educate them.

FREEDMAN: You mentioned, when Ben asked you how you got involved, you had a really good response, which was: I got involved because it was a more – you could see the results sooner, and quicker than you could while you were in physics. And my question to you is: why should young people get involved? And I'm assuming your answer will be similar to why you got involved. So I kind of want to hear: why should young people care about issues today?

LESSER: Issues in general? Or this particular issue?

FREEDMAN: This particular issue.

LESSER: Young people should care about this issue, nuclear de-alerting, because… so many reasons it's almost self-evident. Young people have every reason to become involved in this issue. It's almost self-evident. It's our lives. If we don't take nuclear weapons off of alert status it's very likely that with the Russian government deteriorating, that we could have a nuclear accident within the next decade. We would like to live our lives, we have children to raise someday. We work for different causes on campus and in our communities and it's all worthless if we blow up next week.

de la Cruz: Do you have anything you want to add, that you think we might have missed?

LESSER: Did I get across the urgency, maybe? Maybe I should – there were a couple of great lines I read in the – when I was reading the transcript of this video about how the fate of the planet hangs in the balance.

de la Cruz:It sounds melodramatic, but it actually true.

LESSER: It does. But it's so true. Do you think this is a much more viable method of stopping nuclear war? In the sense that it wasn't really realistic to get the CTBT passed. But do you think should somebody submit a bill for this that there's a higher likely hood --- I mean if I said something like that. Now that the test treaty ban was defeated this is the next realistic goal?

de la Cruz: Actually, that is a good point because...

LESSER: I don't know if it is realistic or not, actually.

de la Cruz: This particular – de-alerting is part of a broader arms control movement – the jump start movement – and (inaudible) isn't really contingent upon a treaty or anything like that. It's just based on people showing some concern and then writing to their representatives, and so forth. And then eventually the President of the United States can unilaterally make the decision. So actually it does have an impact because it's not related to saying: well, we have to sign an accord with Russia, or another super-power, to de-alert their weapons. We can just do it ourselves if the people voice strong opinion and say: this is a major concern to us and you should just do this. And we have 3500 nuclear weapons. Why do we need that many aimed at Russia? There's no – they hardly have any nuclear weapons, and the ones they do are prone to accidental launch. So it's in our best interest to actually do this. In short, maybe if you could somehow phrase that in this post – since the nuclear test ban treaty was killed in Congress, this is a real viable way for us to ensure the safety of – to guard against...

LESSER: Sure. In particular with today's Congress… this Republican controlled Congress… In today's political climate, now that the test ban treaty has been defeated...

de la Cruz: It's really either more important that we get behind this and show the political leaders that this is an important issue and there's a danger.

LESSER: So now that the test ban treaty has been defeated, I really think this is the most viable way to ensure – to not only ensure the nuclear...

de la Cruz: Let's start from the beginning.

LESSER: So now that the nuclear test ban treaty has been defeated, I think that not only is this one way to let our Congressmen know that we're disappointed with that defeat, but also this is the most viable method now, to ensure nuclear safety for the future. It only takes a presidential initiative to make this happen. So should the will of the people be made known to the President and to Congress, then I really think that we could accomplish this in the next year.

de la Cruz: I think you really said it well the first time… if the public makes it known that this is an important issue to them, then all we need is for the President... Why is this even more important now? Do you think this is important now considering the nuclear test ban treaty has been defeated.

LESSER: Considering the defeat of the nuclear test ban treaty, I think nuclear de-alerting is more important than ever. All it takes is a presidential initiative and should the people make it known to their representatives that this – de-alerting- is… should the people make it known to their representatives that they would like our nuclear weapons to be taken off alert status, we have another year with President Clinton in office to make it happen.